Hello!
I need some urgent help.
Here goes short description of Incident:
My wife went for shopping in Kaufland with 3 years old daughter. As daughter was getting tired, Wife made space in Kaufland Kaufwagen by putting some items in Personal Einkaufswagen (Trolley). She put Trolley under Kaufland Kaufwagen. On billing counter, My wife completely forgot items in Trolley. As soon as billing is complete (My wife did not yet touched personal Trolley, otherwise she would have realized mistake immediately), Security person approached took to another room saying that he wanted to check the items. Security Person found unbilled items (Approx value ~80 euros) in personal Trolley, which My Wife tried to explain that she forgot completely. Nobody was listening to her and Security Person called Police and said my wife is not allowed to call anybody (but meanwhile, my wife called me and told to come there immediately).
Police took ID no. of my wife from Security Person and called back again after 15 mins.
My wife doesn't understand Germany fully, but according to what she understood from conversation between Security Person and Police:
Police - Where were the missing items found? In Kaufwagen or in personal handbag, Pockets, etc?
Security Person - Found in Personal Trolley under Kaufwagen
Police - Was the lady alone?
Security Person - No, 3 years old daughter was with her.
After this, Police denied to come there and Security Person gave Hausverbot receipt (100 Euros, banned entry to Kaufland for 1 year).
Security Person made my Wife sign 2 documents (1 - Assumption is that it was report of Incident, 2 - Hausverbot receipt), saying that she is not allowed in Kaufland for 1 year. My Wife was not able to read the report as it was in German and she was quite scared because of very rude behaviour of Security Person. She signed and paid 100 euros.
When I reached the venue and asked for copy of Incident report, Security person denied (not allowed me to read report also) and mentioned that we will get letter from police asking to pay 550 Euros and made us leave the place immediately because of Hausverbot.
Questions:
1 - I am reading in many forums cases like this. I think we will get letter from Police for further actions. So if we reply to that letter accepting that it was mistake (unintentionally missed billing) and will pay 550 euros, then case will be closed?
2 - Is security person allowed to give Hausverbot in absence of Police? and he didnt not allow my wife to call me? Is this legal?
3 - How security person can decide the 550 Euros fine?
4 - Should we expect entry in 'Führungszeugnis'? OR will it be in 'Erweitertes Führungszeugnis'? I read in some blogs that if person is working with children (as teacher), 'Führungszeugnis' is required. If this is correct and if my wife has entry in 'Führungszeugnis', then she will not be able to get teacher job?
5 - Can entry in 'Führungszeugnis' be erased after some time? For ex - No complaints in next 5 years?
6 - Will this entry in 'Führungszeugnis' create problem in getting permanent residence? Has anybody faced this issue?
7 - We are going out of Germany for next 2 months and we wont be able to attend posts. Going to police station now without getting any letter helps in this case? We are not sure if police complain happened or not?
8 - What would be the best advice to get out of this ****ty situation?
P.S - We dont have rechtsversicherung
Missing items in bill in Kaufland, got Hausverbot, Police didn't come
Notfall oder generelle Fragen?
Notfall oder generelle Fragen?
1. First of all, you will receive a letter from the police giving you the opportunity to comment on the matter. Whether you have to pay anything, and if so, how much, will be decided later.
2.1. yes, 2.2. no
3. no
4. If she has no previous criminal record = no.
5. see 4. (if she has one: 3 years in general)
6. see 4.
7.1. That's bad. You should hire someone to check your mail.
7.2. no, none.
7.3. I'm sure it will.
8. Wait for the letter and answer it within 1 week.
PS. It doesn't matter. They don't pay in such cases anyway.
-- Editiert von !!Streetworker!! am 31.10.2021 21:53
Hi Thank you for reply!
Related to 4 and 5 - She doesn't have any previous record.This means, In reply of police letter - if we accept this as unintentional mistake and apologize and pay fine (whatever asked), then also entry in 'Führungszeugnis/ Erweitertes Führungszeugnis' will not be created?
If not, accepting will be best option. If no, Should we defend and not accept mistake to avoid entry? I am afraid this option will cost us lot of money.
Auf Frag-einen-Anwalt.de antwortet Ihnen ein Rechtsanwalt innerhalb von 2 Stunden. Sie bestimmen den Preis.
Zitatthen also entry in 'Führungszeugnis/ Erweitertes Führungszeugnis' will not be created? :
Right, because the punishment won't be high enough to create a criminal record notice.
With no previous criminal record notice it must be higher than 90 "Tagessätze" Geldstrafe (fine) to create one. In a case like this, a maximum of 30 to 50 Tagessätze can be expected realistic, in the worst case.
ZitatQuestions: :
1 - I am reading in many forums cases like this. I think we will get letter from Police for further actions. So if we reply to that letter accepting that it was mistake (unintentionally missed billing) and will pay 550 euros, then case will be closed?
Usually there is a contractual penalty, but I think it is far below 550 €, maybe 50 to 100 €.
Yes, of course.Zitat:
2 - Is security person allowed to give Hausverbot in absence of Police? and he didnt not allow my wife to call me? Is this legal?
See above. I do not know the business conditions of Kaufland. You maybe should have insisted to call the police.Zitat:3 - How security person can decide the 550 Euros fine?
No, not if that is the first reported case, which I think it is.Zitat:4 - Should we expect entry in 'Führungszeugnis'? OR will it be in 'Erweitertes Führungszeugnis'? I read in some blogs that if person is working with children (as teacher), 'Führungszeugnis' is required. If this is correct and if my wife has entry in 'Führungszeugnis', then she will not be able to get teacher job?
You better ask the police. Phone the police, try to get the name of the officer and phone him or her.Zitat:
7 - We are going out of Germany for next 2 months and we wont be able to attend posts. Going to police station now without getting any letter helps in this case? We are not sure if police complain happened or not?
Well, it is unusual that a security person will just check the bought items for no reason. Usually a person is observed doing something. But if you want, you can try to explain how this happened and deny the theft. You or your wife can further can explain that she did not understand what she signed and that you want your money back, because she did not want to steal anything. If there are cameras in the Kaufland, they should have some records and be able to show that your wife hided something in order to steal it.Zitat:8 - What would be the best advice to get out of this ****ty situation?
ZitatUsually there is a contractual penalty, but I think it is far below 550 €, maybe 50 to 100 €. :
Die Vertragsstrafe hat sie bereits gezahlt. Das Strafverfahren ist davon völlig unabhängig.
ZitatYes, of course. :
Auf welcher Grundlage sollte er der Frau verbieten dürfen zu telefonieren?
ZitatYou better ask the police. Phone the police, try to get the name of the officer and phone him or her. :
Bevor nicht die schriftliche Anzeige bei der Polizei vorliegt und ein Vorgang angelegt wurde, bringt das überhaupt nichts.
Zitatand that you want your money back, because she did not want to steal anything :
Auch eine fahrlässige Eigentumsverletzung löst die Vertragsstrafe aus, vgl AG Dülmen 3 C 271/01.
-- Editiert von !!Streetworker!! am 01.11.2021 04:08
ZitatDie Vertragsstrafe hat sie bereits gezahlt. Das Strafverfahren ist davon völlig unabhängig. :
Like I said, a contractual penalty would be around 50 to 100 Euro, but not 550 Euro. I never heard of such a high contractual penalty.
Hausverbot!Zitat:
Auf welcher Grundlage sollte er der Frau verbieten dürfen zu telefonieren?
However, 550 Euro seem to be very high. I did not find anything regarding such a high contractual penalty of Kaufland in the web, did you?Zitat:Auch eine fahrlässige Eigentumsverletzung löst die Vertragsstrafe aus, vgl AG Dülmen 3 C 271/01
Maybe it was a fake security and he is just gone with the money?
Zitatbut not 550 Euro. I never heard of such a high contractual penalty. :
Davon hat ja auch keiner gesprochen. Der Security-Mensch hat "angekündigt", dass noch eine Strafe "von der Polizei" (gemeint war Gericht oder StA/Auflage) in Höhe von 550,00 EUR kommen wird. Die Polizei/StA/Gericht ist für Vertragsstrafen aber nicht zuständig,...
ZitatHowever, 550 Euro seem to be very high. I did not find anything regarding such a high contractual penalty of Kaufland in the web, did you? :
Maybe it was a fake security and he is just gone with the money?
Nochmal... du verwechselst da was. Die Vertragsstrafe hat sie bereits bezahlt, das waren die 100 €.
Die 550 sollen nach Ansicht des Security Mitarbeiters das sein, was strafrechtlich noch kommen wird. ... worauf er natürlich keinen Einfluss hat, ... like I said
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